Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. So my point here is clear. Good day, Trent. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Okay. General Discussion (Forum) Main. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. She would have to have a heavenly body. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. And hes not. So I agree with that. . So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. I believe all things are possible with God. Sep 29, 2021. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. It is not considered inspired. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Juan R. Vlez Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. Steve's musical talents may have roots in his genes. Trent mentioned about dying once. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. Okay. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. So just a historical note for everybody watching. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. Yeah. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. Thank you very much. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? I will click the four-minute mark. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? The only son? Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Were going to be taking those questions. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. That she was conceived without original sin? It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. This sure is fun, isnt it? That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. He had cancer and heart disease. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. Yeah. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Okay. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. All right. So thats another one. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. You mean the son of John? Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. I dont know if I would. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. How do we know theyre brothers? 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